Control

Coordinator
Dec 6, 2011 at 12:04 PM
Edited Dec 6, 2011 at 1:55 PM

Please, write your ideas here about control.

See the wiki page.

Coordinator
Dec 6, 2011 at 6:27 PM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 8:58 AM

Response to BaggedCat's ideas:

Thanks for this information.

I think you are right, we can use 1 to 1 tracking and we can also add some scripted movements. We will do so.

I want the runes to be drawn. ;) We wont give the player all the runes together, they will have enough time to master them. And the runes will be simple enough, you'll see. ;) And the runes will be just like their meaning. A fire rune will be fire-shaped, etc.

I will consider using your system for motion instead of mine. I think it's better, if we try both, and we choose the best. :) You will be able to test them too. ;)

BaggedCat: I added you to the special thanks section.

Developer
Dec 7, 2011 at 7:22 AM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 9:39 AM

I know that move is different to those, but as well as every other controller - it still should translate what i want to do into things my character is actually capable of doing. 

Why would a dead zone introduce a feel of lagg? i played several games with several controllers (xbox, ps, 30key + foot pedals-joysticks, racing wheels) all of them were of high quality - that's what i expect move to be. Every single dead zone was adjustable, and i never felt like "oh what a laggy handling" 

I think dead zone is just a matter of correct adjustment to the player.

The last game a played without a mouse ( where dead zones truely suck :D ) was Battlefield3 on xbox360. I became annoyed by no dead zone on those sticks because this feature wasn't even built. 

 

I'd strongly recommend that dead-zone option. (De-/)activateable and even customizable. No one should be forced to use it

Coordinator
Dec 7, 2011 at 9:00 AM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 9:39 AM

We'll try both and then we can decide which is the best. I agree with you Nervi. And I think it's not only the idea what matters, it's very important how it will be realized.

Dec 7, 2011 at 10:17 AM
Nervi wrote:

I know that move is different to those, but as well as every other controller - it still should translate what i want to do into things my character is actually capable of doing.

Why would a dead zone introduce a feel of lagg? i played several games with several controllers (xbox, ps, 30key + foot pedals-joysticks, racing wheels) all of them were of high quality - that's what i expect move to be. Every single dead zone was adjustable, and i never felt like "oh what a laggy handling"

I think dead zone is just a matter of correct adjustment to the player.

The last game a played without a mouse ( where dead zones truely suck :D ) was Battlefield3 on xbox360. I became annoyed by no dead zone on those sticks because this feature wasn't even built.

Darress wrote:

I want the runes to be drawn. ;) 

Nervi:

My point was the character can't do whats considered standard things like jump attack, 360 back hand swing, with out breaking the 1 to 1 feel. They will be restricted to just swiping which is what the player will be doing. With gestures, you've already established the gesture is representative but not 1 to 1, so it will not break immersion. Also the same swiping sequence would look much better with proper animations.

e.g. swipe left, right, down. in 1 to 1, yes it will be impressively accurate, but it will look as good as how you did it in person minus any body actions you may have added in the excitement. The character will have a generic stance with only their arm moving to follow the player.
swipe left, right, down. gesture based, no it wont match exact player movement, but we could pick up say 3 levels of horizontal high/mid/low, 3 verticals left/middle/right, similar 3 on the diagonals etc. the animation will be a proper animated swing, successive animations can blend, or exaggerated. e.g. left swing, character steps into it, right swing, character shifts his weight, adjusts their grip and does a back hand swipe, down swing, the character flows from the end of the right swing, rotates 360 for a heavy down slash ending in a crouch position.

see. same swipes. one looks like any button input combat game but with gestures that represent the move instead of buttons. the other looks like a motion controller fighting game (i'd hate to use the term waggle gameplay, but players would resort to being like Zorro doing zigzags in front of them)

It's perceived lag by the player, not true lag due to the Move controller. I play a lot of fighting games on an arcade stick and the comparable term is the 'throw' of the stick. This is the time it takes the movement of (whichever) controller to move out of the dead zone before registering an input. On the Move - if the dead zone is small then it will be responsive but perhaps jittery, or the player will move when they don't want to, or move too much (probably what you felt on Battlefield3, and to stand still they will need to balance the Move controller very still and very vertical else the character will wander off. If the dead zone is large, then the player will have to tilt a lot more to surpass the dead zone, creating the feeling of lag. Also unlike an analog stick where the stick returns automatically to the dead zone, the player will have to return the Move controller themselves. It would be like controlling a tilting ball maze (without the maze bit). With buttons, its just like using WASD keys and mouse.

But yeah, test and iterate both, thats what development is about. :)

Darress:

I'll work drawing runes into the design. I can see it work if simple enough. e.g. 3 horizontal wavy lines for water/3 vertical wavy lines for fire/etc

Developer
Dec 7, 2011 at 10:52 AM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM

I don't strictly decline a pure gesture based movement, but as darress correctly mentioned earlier - we should use the possibilities of "move" as far as possible. If this means that we're no longer able to move the charactermodel forward, we're doing something wrong :D 

You're right with players zorro-zigzagging as a result to no boundaries and i don't like the idea of an immobile chest either. We should probably wait for the sandbox prototype before defining players range of actions or the enemy ones'. 

 "...or move too much (probably what you felt on Battlefield3, and to stand still they will need to balance the Move controller very still and very vertical else the character will wander off. If the dead zone is large, then the player will have to tilt a lot more to surpass the dead zone, creating the feeling of lag."

that's exactly my point and why i recommend to implement the deadzone as configurable.

else we could think about a centerposition that exclusively allows players to disable the moves motion capture until undone - there could be an informating symbol onscreen like the well known sound-muted-speaker.

Coordinator
Dec 7, 2011 at 11:07 AM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 11:11 AM
Nervi wrote:

i don't like the idea of an immobile chest either.

Nobody said the chest will be immobile. I think it's not impossible to make the chest follow your movements too. And I'm considering using a Kinect as well. I just don't know how many people have both controllers at home... :/ Maybe it would be better to skip Kinect.

And I forgot to say, we can't use 2 Moves for now, we are waiting for the MotionInJoy driver update. (Under Linux it works, but CryEngine does not.)

Dec 7, 2011 at 12:10 PM

not immobile. just not animated. it wont look like a attack animation found in normal games. it will look like the body just tracking the player. and the player would move using buttons just not motion tracking

skip kinect. I develop on kinect and navigation is cumbersome at best. we're always saying "kinect would be awsome with some buttons" :)

"we can't use 2 Moves for now" i was designing for 2 move controllers, so that rules out my navigation on buttons anyway. hahaha

Developer
Dec 7, 2011 at 12:23 PM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 12:26 PM

by immobily i meant not animated

darress told me that the driver update is currently work in progress, don't know why he didn't add that ^^

Coordinator
Dec 7, 2011 at 12:32 PM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 12:33 PM

Yes, the MiJ driver is WIP, I wrote to it's developer.

I didn't mean replace the Moves with the Kinect but use them together! ;) But I will skip it, because the most people don't have them both.

Dec 7, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Edited Dec 7, 2011 at 1:32 PM

No lie. i just saw a video of skyward sword and its like my design, minus dual motion wielding! (i didnt copy it honest). i'm soo getting that game.

anyway, i can do a design for motion navigation and 1 to 1 sword combat, if we're going for sports champion with free movement and not skyward sword.

design...coming soon.

Coordinator
Dec 7, 2011 at 1:56 PM

If I had a prototype, I'll let you know, and you can experiment with both modes. I recommend to not waste too much time until then with the control design.

Dec 7, 2011 at 10:33 PM

some rune drawing ideas for how to detect them.

http://www.baggedcat.talktalk.net/draw_rune2.jpg

Coordinator
Dec 8, 2011 at 7:17 AM

Your concept is very nice, but there will be 2 Moves. I think it would be better if the runes would have been drawn with 2 swords.

An other problem is, that the script must be recognized if the player draws it in small.

I think I will be able to either find an open source gesture recognizer that can be used, or implement one. No worries. ;) I said it wont be easy, but it's not impossible of course.

Developer
Dec 8, 2011 at 7:40 AM
Edited Dec 8, 2011 at 7:48 AM

We may even bind the rune-drawing hand to the sword the rune is inscripted. 

E.g.: windrune is inscripted to left sword, fire to right sword - draw wind with the left hand and fire with the right one.

OT:  BaggedCat if you want to join the devteam as a member, write a mail to darress (probably containing a skype-id :)

Coordinator
Dec 8, 2011 at 8:47 AM

I found a gesture recognizer. It's fast and accurate enough.

You can try it here. Please choose the "Use protractor" option, the other is less accurate.

The rune will be bound to the sword it is drawn on.

Developer
Dec 8, 2011 at 9:01 AM
Edited Dec 8, 2011 at 9:10 AM

i'm not sure if this will fit our needs as i find it kind of imprecise. i just draw a triangle with a small space between the left and right lines and it resulted in "circle", as well as it kind of randomly choses between triangle and delete / right and left curl bracket. I got to mention that i'm using a touchpad instead of a mouse at the moment.

 

note: 

i'm not able to scroll there using googles' chrome. no problems with firefox

Coordinator
Dec 8, 2011 at 12:41 PM

If you can find a better one, just show it. ;) But I will look for other ones as well.

By the way for me it recognized almost everything. And the concept is not bad eighter.

Coordinator
Dec 8, 2011 at 12:59 PM

I'm don't think the move button is the best solution. Because you can't move and hack'n'slash at the same time, I mean both swords.
I prefer buttons, two on each controller. For example onthe right controller is for forward and backward and on the other controller is right and left turn.
Whit this you gain more freedom in the game, so you can turn, run, and cast rune/slash at the same time.
If you want to strafe you can push the move button on the other controller and the turn right/left will be strafe right/left.
And if you want to look around there will be the another move button. And for use/interact/etc there will be 4 buttons free. I'll think that's more than enough.
And It might be easier this way to keep on sync the move and the sword ( because when u press
the move button, if am I right, the sword dosen't move just the player (at least 1 sword would be out of sync).

Dec 8, 2011 at 4:16 PM
balee wrote:

I'm don't think the move button is the best solution. Because you can't move and hack'n'slash at the same time, I mean both swords.
I prefer buttons, two on each controller. For example onthe right controller is for forward and backward and on the other controller is right and left turn.
Whit this you gain more freedom in the game, so you can turn, run, and cast rune/slash at the same time.
If you want to strafe you can push the move button on the other controller and the turn right/left will be strafe right/left.
And if you want to look around there will be the another move button. And for use/interact/etc there will be 4 buttons free. I'll think that's more than enough.
And It might be easier this way to keep on sync the move and the sword ( because when u press
the move button, if am I right, the sword dosen't move just the player (at least 1 sword would be out of sync).

 

You've detailed a similar control design as mine http://www.baggedcat.talktalk.net/controls.jpg to enable navigation and keep 2 Moves free for attacking.

however i adopted an equivalent wasd (strafe) and mouse (look/turn).

yours would equate to az, nm (move and turn) and modifer button to strafe, and a look button. i feel your version would be too slow like a resident evil game in turning. and you couldnt turn and strafe at the same time. and the look would be under utilised much like the look in platform games to just, well, look around.

hopefuly (not tested), my design allows FPS level of freedom of movement, plus swinging 2 swords at once. the only thing it doesnt allow is to swing the right weapon and look at the same time. i cant see when this would be useful though.

Developer
Dec 8, 2011 at 8:30 PM

i'd LOVE to see trackIr implemented :D

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/

Editor
Dec 8, 2011 at 9:42 PM

How about we use your system for movement, and clicking a button or two activates "fight mode" where the player autolocks on the closest enemy or something like that, maybe even go 3rd person in that mode.

Just throwing it in there.

Dec 9, 2011 at 8:47 AM
F4celess wrote:

How about we use your system for movement, and clicking a button or two activates "fight mode" where the player autolocks on the closest enemy or something like that, maybe even go 3rd person in that mode.

Just throwing it in there.

  i like 1st or 3rd person view. even toggleable like in skyrim. while fine in 1st person, it won't look as good in 3rd person if we are going for 1 to 1 tracking for sword swing fighting.

lock on is cool but may be unnecessary as the movement would be wasd (move and strafe) and look would be Move button. so circling an enemy would be easy while still pulling off attacks. (e.g. circle left and attack =  triangle to strafe left, press right Move button and flick move to the left to adjust angle. hold right trigger and swing to swing sword.

as look/turn is on the Move controller (hold right Move button and move the controller) and not the buttons suggested by balee, looking/turning would be as fast as using a mouse (even better as it could be 1 to 1) so not requiring lock on. you also have full look up/down/(turn)left/(turn)right in one instead of a button each to (turn)left/(turn)right and the Move button to enable looking up/down

Coordinator
Dec 9, 2011 at 10:10 AM

Nervi, this TrackIR is more expensive than the 2 Moves together. Please, what chances do we have to find players owning the 2 Moves and the TrackIR.

I think you actually do have a TrackIR. But it doesn't mean, you will be able to use it in our game. Do we need more prequisites? We have enough...

BaggedCat and F4celess: You can gather ideas for control, and soon you will be able to try them! ;) I won't approve or reject any ideas, we can try most of them in the prototype.

Developer
Dec 9, 2011 at 10:13 AM

no we don't. and i don't actually have one, but i used one for a period of about a year 

Coordinator
Dec 9, 2011 at 10:44 AM

http://www.baggedcat.talktalk.net/controls.jpg  ...loved!
One lil thing change the left and right hand because while looking arond swinging the sword whit your right hand easier.

And loved the autolock too because aiming whit spells whitout this going to be very difficult.

Idea: doulbe tap & hold turn left/right, on the srafle left/right, when you raging havok whit 2 swords, and of course still have movebutton turning option too.

Editor
Dec 9, 2011 at 10:50 AM
Darress wrote:

what chances do we have to find players owning the 2 Moves and the TrackIR.

What are the odds to find someone who have 2 Moves, a bluetooth dongle and the interest to put it all together?

I think we should, for being userfriendly. Give normal PC controls a thought. simply to give the audience who does not have the currently required hardware a taste of the game, people like me.

If anything make it a sideproject with lower priority than the rest of the game, would give some extra work but widens the possibility of making a fairly popular game alot.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Coordinator
Dec 9, 2011 at 11:47 AM

The problem is, I want this game to be built on physics. You cannot emulate physics with keyboard and mouse. So there is only 2 options:

1. We make the Move control so dumb so we can emulate it with standard devices.

2. We script everything with keyboard and mouse, but then you can't be as good as with the Moves. (Just imagine a fight, one with free motion, and the other can repeat only the same 4-5 motions...) And to script everything is a big overhead.

For me, none of these options seems acceptable.

Developer
Dec 9, 2011 at 1:44 PM

the very basic 2x move+eye costs about €70,-

i don't see this as a big deal to core gamers. right now i'm buying an alternative xbox 360 controller for my girlfriend which costs about €50,- although i'm already having a controller.

my point is: if the game meets the players' expectations, the peripheral requirements won't be high in our case.

Coordinator
Dec 9, 2011 at 3:49 PM

I agree with Nervi! And you actually can find a lots of people having 2 Moves, because there are some PS3 games using them. And you can find much more people having an Eye and a Move, and the costs of an additional Move is really not high.

Dec 13, 2011 at 9:30 AM
Darress wrote:

The problem is, I want this game to be built on physics.

how about semi gesture semi 1 to 1 like the free slash section in the new Metal Gear Rising trailer.

so the game takes the angle and direction of the swing 1 to 1, but plays a animation of a slash instead of true physics (speed and orientation/physics contact on enemy, etc.)

I just dont think just physics will be fun. players aren't master swords men and shouldn't need to be!!

Coordinator
Dec 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM

Ok, we can script some extra motions. :)

Coordinator
Jan 6, 2012 at 2:26 PM

I have serious problems with the 1:1 motion controlled melee fight system. I'm not even sure it can be achieved with CryEngine. I asked around in the forums, looked hours long the documentation, tried many things in code, worked weeks on this issue, but I'm still very far from success.
The collision handling with non-living entities is buggy, and I found no way to handle collision with living entities. 

We have still some possibilities. Choose from them:

1. Use scripted motions for meele fight, the animations can be really nice, the fight motions would be triggered by device motion recognition.
2. Use 1:1 tracking but no collision with living entities. Of course you will still do damage on hit, but no collision response... (We have still the buggy sword-sword collision, maybe it can be improved a bit...)
3. Skip the whole melee system and focus on the rune system. (Or use melee runes.)

What do you think? 

Editor
Jan 6, 2012 at 4:39 PM

I think we should drop interacting with objects. I guess the problems are that the swords try to catch up with the PS Moves and become jittery and buggy?

For reference. Skyrim(yes, I compare to great games) doesn't interact with whatever you hit, on top of that it's all animations.

I don't think people will be mad or annoyed if the swords doesn't interact with other objects except for dealing damage. maybe a stagger animations for when you are blocked could be implemented.

 

my thoughts on this issue.

Editor
Jan 6, 2012 at 4:51 PM

Number 3 is a REEEALY bad idea in my opinion :D

I think 1 would be good, we could make many different moves(we could design/animate moves which fits the fighting style etc), when we have enaugh moves you wouldn't really see that there is no 1:1 tracking and the fights would be really dynamic...maybe some cutscene like attacks to like the finisher in skyrim or some attacks in assassins creed...

Coordinator
Jan 7, 2012 at 8:04 AM

F4celesss: no, the swords could catch up with the Moves, the problem was the collision. The CE could not handle, that I continously gave impulses in order to follow the Move's position, and the sword began the shake than went into the wall. :D I tried to solve this manually (registered the collisions and give impulses so, that there will be no impulse in the direction of the collision), but it was still buggy, I think because not every collision was registered, and if a single fell out, the sword went into the wall/ground/etc). The CE was not designed for do such things, in an ordinary FPS no technique like this will be used.

Ok, I have a new idea. All collisions with the sword will be ignored entirely. The most of the fight movements will be not scripted, but will be recognized as a fight movements, no extraordinary animation will be played (maybe some nice effects will do), and if the movement was recognized, the same hit/damage model will be used just like by a melee weapon of any FPS. There will be different types of fight movements (upper, lower), and there will be defensive stances, that will be recognized as well. There will be 2-3 defensive stances, and some more attacks. If you are in the upper defensive stance, no upper attack will do damage, etc. So you have to recognize the attack of the enemy and use the proper defense pose, that will block the blow. That is very easy to follow, and the AI can be programmed easily as well.
I hope you could understand me. :) 

Is it ok for everybody? 

Coordinator
Jan 7, 2012 at 12:18 PM

Since I and Balee wanted the swords to move as you move your hands without collisions, i think we both approve :D Finally some some crazy hack n slash action is in sight :P

Editor
Jan 7, 2012 at 2:32 PM

sounds good, but i think we could add some scripted (really cool) attacks as well, for example as finisher..

But all in all the system you mentioned sounds good :D

Coordinator
Jan 7, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Yes, I said most of the movement. Some will be scripted. ;)

Editor
Jan 13, 2012 at 3:46 PM
Edited Jan 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM

I Like it all! 

 

Hey but after you have scripted all of the moves and stuff... when the move feature is finished will their be a WASD Or A Directional Keypad? or both?

 

because if their is a alternative control to psmove.... before you start the game (like maybe continue it) a menu should pop up and say:

 

Which Control's would you like to use

PSMove

WASD / Directional Keypad

whatever one they choose is the one the game is set to.

simple and basic

Editor
Jan 13, 2012 at 4:30 PM

It's already discussed in the prototype thread...